Tom Doak Answers Club TFE

Earlier this fall, Tom Doak joined Andy for the latest episodes of their Yolk with Doak podcast series, and we included a few questions from Club TFE members. There were many more questions submitted than could be answered, so last week Tom took the time to answer a bunch more in the comments section of the call-for-questions post. For simplicity’s sake, we compiled the questions and answers here. Enjoy some insights from one of the greatest minds in golf course architecture!

Question: Best 3 greens you’ve built in the last 5 years? – Evan Baldridge

Tom Doak: Oooh, I would have to think about that one for a while. It’s an especially hard one to answer because most of “my” greens are shaped by others and I don’t want to play favorites among them . . . if I praise a wild green, it sometimes encourages young shapers to try too hard to match that. You would impress me more with something that’s subtle but effective, and something that I could maybe add to, instead of subtract from.

Q: High Pointe looks to be an example of very restrained architecture, especially compared to many new projects going for a maximalist look. Do you worry that some players will find it too subtle? – Jake Archambeau

TD: At this point, I’m not too worried what other people think of my work, especially not at High Pointe which I will have ample opportunity to assess on my own. The original version was all about the greens and not bunkers or other eye candy, and the new version is the same. The greens are not going to be described as subtle; a lot of people will say they’re too severe. But that’s what keeps you honest from tee to green.

Q: 1-How did you meet the Japanese architect Shunsuke Kato in 1990s?

2-How do you think the Japanese two-green system ?

3-What is the future of the Japanese golf architecture ? – Xu Zhang

TD: Mr. Kato was a friend of my friend Masa Nishijima, and Masa brought him to play golf at Crystal Downs and High Pointe in the early 90s.

The two-green system makes it hard to create variety among the holes . . . especially on the older courses where it was not part of the original design but introduced later. I understand that it was important in maintaining courses in such harsh conditions back in the day, but improved grasses should make that a non-issue now.

The future is what you make of it; in Japan, I’m unlikely to be involved.

Q: What is the best way to educate a client? – Joe Wandro

TD: Play golf with them! There is a danger that, if they are better than you, they might lose respect for your judgment, but you will get to know what they like and don’t like and whether you are a good fit. I rarely have time to do this anymore, but going on a golf trip to Ireland with Mike Keiser in 1995 or 96 was one of my best investments of time, ever — and it helped him a lot, too.

Q: I’ve heard it said that one of your favorite designs was an early routing of Pacific Dunes. What is something or some things you preferred in that early working? – Lance Sitton

I don’t know where you saw this, but by far the best routing for Pacific Dunes is the last one. I don’t remember any holes we lost from the earlier iterations that were better than what’s out there now . . . we did have a cool green site for the 17th hole just before that big bunker on the left of the 18th, but as a whole, it wasn’t better.

No. 6 at Pacific Dunes. (Fried Egg Golf)

Q; Our golf course, located in Miami, FL, is in the process of a total renovation. We’re currently going back and forth on USGA greens vs Modified California greens. Contractors pitched MCG and our super is weary. We’ve heard more courses going the Modified California route down here. On a broad level, how do you approach differentiating from longstanding “industry standards,” and how do you balance construction vs longterm management? – Danny Martinez

TD: Every situation is site-specific, but I can say that less than ten of my 45 courses have USGA greens, so I obviously don’t consider it to be essential in all locations. It is common only because it’s become an industry standard and when you go against that you open yourself up to liability claims if it doesn’t work out. That is why in many instances, the MOST EXPENSIVE POSSIBLE WAY to build something is the way most people do it. And that’s part of the reason the green fees and membership fees are so damned high.

Q: What is your favorite type of apple? And why is it Red Delicious? – Jason Murray

TD: It is now the Chestnut Crab Apple, after a great sampling tour with my wife at the USDA’s research station in upstate NY. It’s pretty small and very tasty. You could carry two or three of them in your pocket for snacks while you play golf. I’m thinking I am going to plant a little apple orchard somewhere at High Pointe, so that someday people can grab snacks off the course like I have always done at Crystal Downs.

Q: When people talk about golf in Europe they tend to lean on the GB &NI. What are some places that are hidden gems to be explored for the uniqueness in the courses available. – Robert Novorolsky

TD: I haven’t traveled there nearly as much as I would like to; hope to do more in 2025 as I work on the last volume of The Confidential Guide. Of the courses I have seen, France and The Netherlands have the lion’s share of the best classic stuff. It’s pretty sad that people’s impression of golf in France is now Le Golf National.

Q: Based on your experience with the Lido, do you see a path to resurrect other classic courses by Raynor/others? – Will Thrasher

TD: Somebody will, but it won’t be me.

View from above The Lido. (Fried Egg Golf)

Q: How do you decide on the sand in bunkers? Does appearance outweigh playability and consistency? – Mark Dennish

TD: If it was up to me we would just use the sand that is in the ground when we dig them, because I want them to be hazards, not “playable” or “consistent” and not based on “appearance”. But clients all have their own ideas of how they want the bunkers to look and play and how much they want to spend to achieve that, and I generally don’t try to talk them out of it. I DID stick my neck out at Childress Hall this year and convinced them to try the native sand, partly because anything else you put into them is just going to blow out of there, anyway. I would suggest staying out of those bunkers if you can.

Q: I would love to hear Tom’s thoughts on Hooper after today’s Design notebook!

In addition, following Matt and Garrett’s great discussions on Nebraska and Maine, if Tom was given two weeks with no responsibilities besides going to see cool publicly accessible golf courses in US, where would he head (perhaps not including Michigan!)? Are there any pockets of the country he hasn’t been able to see with classic architecture he’d love to finally get to one day? – Ben Denison

TD: I have no thoughts on Hooper; they wanted me to be involved there, but I don’t have the time to spare. Unfortunately, the same is true for exploring old courses. I’m sure there are lots of cool places I’ve missed [though I doubt I have missed many courses that would be a 7 in The Confidential Guide]. I’d guess that more of them are in New England, little places that are ignored because they’re too short or quirky because they were built so long ago. But I’m more likely to find time to see that sort of course in the UK than here.

Q: What factors or ideas led to the decision to move away from revetted face bunkering at Old Petty? – Alex Mroz

TD: Frankly most courses in the UK wish they didn’t have to keep up their revetted bunkers — they’re a major drain on the maintenance budget and the crew’s time. So we wanted to see if we could build a course that didn’t rely on them for its interest. I think it’s likely that we will wind up revetting a few bunkers or adding a few in time, but not 50 or 100 of them.

Q: With the completion of The Loop as a reversible course, are there any other design ideas in Tom’s notebooks that he would like to have the ability to build into a course someday? – Justin Wilson

TD: Absolutely but I’m not just giving those ideas away to others yet. When I retire, I will let everyone know if there’s anything that I think still needs to be explored.

The Loop. (Fried Egg Golf)

Q: I recently got my first two cracks at Sedge Valley and really enjoyed it. I could care less about par but golf in the United States seems to have this (what I think is odd) obsession with par, outside of focusing more on match play and getting more courses like Sedge Valley built, how do we get away from the obsession with par in the United States? – Chris Bojar

TD: We are talking about another project right now that would take it a step further. I hope that one happens, I’m really excited about the concept. [It’s not an original idea, just something very different for the USA]

Q: Is there a future for the growth of 5700-6300 yard municipal golf? Is there any design ideas/trends that could get the public/government to support it? – Justin Miller

TD: Honestly, can we not agree that governments have a lot more pressing problems now than municipal golf? I just hope they don’t abandon it entirely. Public recreation is a good thing, and the “market” does not always provide it.

Q: Do you ever look at any projects your other design-associates are doing or see a course that they are working on and wish you where help with that project. Or it’s a course that you don’t know much about but then want to go play it. – Mark Wittig

TD: Not if they don’t ask me! I’m going to go play The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell this week, en route to Pinehurst . . . but I deliberately waited a while so that whatever I say about them won’t carry so much weight. Likewise it is difficult for me to go and see anything new that Gil or Mike DeVries or Kyle Franz have built . . . too many people out there are going to have an opinion about why my opinion was the way it was, and I’m just tired of dealing with the b.s.

Q: Well, being in Indianapolis and having heard Doak’s previous comments on Harrison Hills (which I adore!), I’d be curious to hear more of his take on Langford & Moreau. Specifically, what impact did they have on his style of architecture, if at all, in addition to golf course architecture as a whole? – Travis Billick

TD: They didn’t have any real impact on my style, because I hadn’t seen much of their work until my ideas were pretty fully formed. I know Brian Schneider and Kye Goalby love their stuff and sometimes that has snuck into the shaping of something we are building . . . the 18th green at The Renaissance Club is based off a green on the L & M course where Kye grew up playing.

Q: I know you’re busy designing golf courses, do you know when you’ll come out with the fifth book of confidential golf guide featuring courses in Asia? – Steve Schaefer

TD: The book on Asia and the Pacific, Volume 5, has been out since 2019! There are still copies available for purchase.

The missing book is Volume 4 on Continental Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. I was starting to see courses for it in 2019 and then world events intervened and then I got busy with design work again. But I’m getting back to it in 2025 and intend to have a book completed by the summer or fall of 2026.

Q: Can you give us a couple of older, way under the radar courses that you find interesting and worth searching out to play but are generally overlooked by the masses? Perhaps, they are passed over due to length, location, only 9 holes, etc., etc. – Scott Neal

TD: I’ve written entire books on this topic, so now most of the courses that I would name are not overlooked. The most recent one I saw that fits the category is Durness, in Scotland. I’d heard good things about it but it was much more interesting than I expected.

Q: Should the second course at Ballyneal ever happen (ie, water rights, staffing, etc), how is it different from the first course? Aside from making it cart friendly, were you intentionally trying to make it different from the first course and if so, in what ways? – Andrew Chang

TD: It would be a very different course because the contours are all different and that dictates everything out there. We never got as far as thinking about bunker styles, greens contours etc. [apart from what was already on the ground] so I don’t know how to answer any further. My main job was to tell them honestly whether I thought the course could be good enough to be worth doing, and by the time we finished the routing, I thought it had great potential.

Nos. 2 and 3 at Ballyneal. (Fried Egg Golf)

Q: Got to play Sebonack a few weeks ago, have been fortunate to play all the other big dogs on Long Island…was way more impressed with it than what I was expecting based on golf social’s opinion on it. If it was 100 years old like it’s neighbors, do you think it would be a top 10 course in the world like them? – Ryan Hub

TD: A top ten course in the world, really? No, I don’t think it’s that good, although you could fairly argue that we had a better piece of ground to work with than the neighbors did, so we should have been able to compete with them more. In the end, the client is happy with the place, which explains a lot about why it is what it is.

Q: Awhile ago on GCA, you asked for input on how golf analytics and game planning, mapping of strategies, etc. should be accounted for in golf course architecture. Ignoring that still something like 95% of golfers are almost completely unaware of any of the modern-day stats-driven strategies, what effects, if any, has an increased understanding of how higher-level players play golf and score brought to your architecture? – Erik Barzeski

TD: My biggest takeaway from working on Memorial Park was Brooks Kopeka’s observation that non-revetted bunkers don’t matter to the professionals and an uneven lie in the rough is more of a challenge to them, especially when combined with trouble around the green. You can do a lot with that — it isn’t going to win any awards for the people who are impressed by eye candy, but it has proven quite effective.

My biggest takeaway from having Padraig Harrington consulting on The Renaissance Club is that Tour pros are never going to be happy with what I do, because I give average golfers / members plenty of room to miss a shot and get away with it, and the pros hate it when their opponent hits a worse miss than they do and they aren’t punished for it. By the same token, Padraig is an all-time great guy and I’ve probably learned more from his comments on how the holes play than I did from Brooks, who hits it so high and so far that it isn’t relevant to anyone but a Tour pro.

Still, a lot of the players I’ve talked to in the last few years tell me that even if they are coached to ignore the strategy of the hole, the stuff we do is still effective, and we should keep on doing it. Also, when you get them one on one, many of the guys over 40 say the equipment situation has gone too far and they wish it would be dialed back so they could try to play more golf shots the way they learned to play . . . it just doesn’t pay to do that now, because the ball flies so straight. They just can’t say it on the record anywhere or they will lose their sponsorships!

Q: I am one of the many who think that Pacific Dunes is a masterpiece. But there are some who critique a few holes – specifically 14, which feels impossible in either wind, 16 and 18. I personally like the latter two but 14 seems tough in summer and winter winds. Can you explain the thinking behind those holes and the routing? – Matthew Greber

TD: The idea for #14 was Mr. Keiser’s and I understood that it would be tough in the prevailing winds. But a lot of famous par-3’s are just demanding shots. The 17th at Sand Hills is considered one of the great holes in golf and it has exactly the same issues and there is absolutely no way to land the ball in front of the green there.

Q:Will Sedge Valley finally kill the trend of the mega-width golf courses? – Patrick Craig

TD: Hopefully Sedge Valley will make a small impact, but most Americans think the bigger, the better.

Q: I recently had the pleasure to play NGLA. I was intrigued by the convex bunkers scattered around, largely out of play. Are any current designs incorporating this feature? – Jeff Bergeron

TD: If those “inverted bunkers” are actually sand, they just get blown away over time. The ones at National are a pretty heavy gravel that you don’t find on many sites.

Q: In renovations of older courses with little capacity for increasing length (and not overly long to begin with), how do you accommodate and balance the needs of better ball strikers/longer players against the mid to higher handicap players? Certain strategies geared to making a course more playable for mid to higher-handicap players get pitched as not impacting how a course plays for better players. How do clubs increase their attractiveness to better players in the renovation process? – Justin Mills

TD: Numbers-wise, it makes more sense to accommodate the mid handicap players, and not worry so much about the low-handicap dudes. But the low-handicap dudes tend to run the green committee and board, so many clubs have it backwards.

Q: Is St. Patrick’s Links 8 or 9 on the Doak Scale? – Cathal Devlin

TD: I don’t know. I have built about half a dozen courses that I think are in the conversation for a 9 — and that someone else I respect thinks are a 9 — but I know I can’t give that many 9’s to my own courses. St. Patrick’s turned out great. It’s possible we will make a couple of little tweaks down the road, because we built it on a shoestring, but it’s only going to get better with time.

Q: There appears to be a boom in the development of private, destination clubs. Is this sustainable? – Luke Lavoie

TD: There are a lot of private destination clubs because the land is cheaper, and because the client just wants to build something cool and hand it off, instead of being in the golf business for the rest of their lives. The other categories all involve more long-term thought. Unfortunately I think the brand-new public access local course is pretty dead, due to how much it costs to build one now . . . I’ve been warning about that for a long time as construction “standards” keep raising the price of everything.

Q: Obviously in your line of work you are balancing your artistic vision and your legacy with what can sometimes be a finite budget. Can you think of particular examples of design features, or even entire routings that really excited you, and perhaps you thought would have made a “better” golf course, but ultimately had to be abandoned because the budget (either construction or ongoing maintenance) simply wouldn’t allow for them? Was this hard to accept in the beginning and have you grown more accustomed to it now? (Or did simply getting bigger budget projects as you made your name eliminate this problem altogether?) – Steven Wade

TD: I’ve had a few projects lately [Pinehurst and Sedge Valley were two] where the client never even mentioned the budget, and I had to go ask them what it was near the end, just to get a handle on how much costs have risen. But to be honest, I can barely remember any project where I was handicapped by budget constraints, because I don’t believe it costs anything more to make a course interesting. There have been a few times [mostly long ago] where it became clear the client wouldn’t spend the $ to keep the course in good shape, that’s why I try to be careful in picking clients.

Q: In the 35+ years you’ve been designing courses, how has your priority list when seeing a site for the first time evolved? What do you look for first – soil, views, terrain, potential greensites…? – Tony Dear

TD: I am always looking for the red flags that are going to make it impossible to do something really outstanding: permitting issues, difficult terrain, potential disagreements with the client, etc. And nowadays, how hard is it to get there, and do I really want to make ten more trips there?